Episode #42: Partnership Building: How Evangelical Communities Limit Your Dreams, with Nicki and Stephen Pappas

What did you want to be when you grew up?

In EMPish (Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal) settings, growing up is commonly centered around finding your soulmate, getting married, having kids, and enhancing the church community.

Or, as Julia says, “A person's dreams must serve the greater purpose of evangelism.”

“When we consider gender,” she continues, “the complications get worse. Women support the “dreams” of their husbands. Husbands support the “dreams” of the larger church dictated by the pastor and the broader goals of the American Christian church, often supporting white nationalism and other conservative agendas.”

We talk with Nicki and Stephen Pappas, authors of the upcoming book Becoming Egalitarian, about how, by attempting to adhere to the standards of the church, they lost themselves and their dreams. They talk with us specifically about:

Making Dreams Come True (2:00): This episode explores the Gottman principle of making dreams come true, individually and within a partnership. Jeremiah gives the example: “So when we consider life dreams from the partnership perspective, we may be referring to individual or shared dreams. For example, Julia and I have individual dreams of writing two different books. And we also have a shared dream of what we want to create with Sexvangelicals. Nurturing and supporting both individual and shared dreams are vital for the health of a relationship.”

Gender and Dreams Within the Church (7:00): Julia explains “Sadly, a person's dreams must serve the greater purpose of evangelism. And then when we consider gender, the complications here get worse. Breaking it down. Women support the quote-unquote dreams of their husbands. Husbands support the dreams of the larger church dictated by the pastor and the broader goals of the American Christian church, often supporting white nationalism and other conservative agendas.”

Gearing up for Marriage (19:00): Nicki shares what the confines of dating within the EMPish Church looked like: “There was kind of a lighthearted playfulness between us—flirty, just fun. Because of the pressure and the whole movement bolstered by I Kissed Dating Goodbye, it becomes this serious vibe of ‘Would I marry this person? Because if not, then we can't waste time.’ And I can't be emotionally cheating on my future spouse by being flirty with this person. That very much dampened our playfulness in a big way.”

Motherhood and Marriage (27:00): Nicki describes existing as a woman within a Christian structure: “I want to be the definition of success in a space, right? And so when I'm told that being a wife is what I'm called to do, and then that being a mother is God's highest and holiest calling, this is what gets me like the currency in this space. This is what gets me the social capital is to be the best helper.” All desires and dreams are stripped, and the only true callings are motherhood and marriage. She goes on to say: “I can't be the best teacher and be the best wife and mom.” The Church however does not set up structures to aid people through this emotionally or physically. It is challenging to chase after dreams that are not allowed to exist within the confines of the Church walls.

Lack of Sex Education (41:00): Stephen talks about how men and women were taught about sex, and how women are taught to never deny sex and to consistently encourage it once married, while men are taught no sex before marriage and that men have naturally high libidos which will activate on the wedding night. “[Nicki] was told you either can't say no to sex, you say yes or convince me. That was this model that was upheld. For me, you know, growing up in the church, it's always like no sex before marriage, that's sinful, right? And so, I didn't. And even got to the point where it's like, okay, no kissing because it's too tempting to do that and not go further.” This idea plays into the light-switch theory once again, and how the second “I Do” is said, all the knowledge and desire of sex will just flow through your veins with no education or knowledge.

What Happens When You Don’t Perform the Gender Scripts, Sexually or Otherwise (45:00): Jeremiah adds: “Thinking about the cultural messages, not just the religious messages around, you know, what happens to women who have very quick sexual accelerators, the slut shaming that happens, all the negative language, that women are given both inside and outside of marriage. And then also the same thing for men who have a higher brake system, the shaming language, often the homophobic language that gets directed towards men who have a stronger brake and the dual response cycle that you were referring to.” The Church tends to hurl homophobic and sexist language at people who differ from their idea of the norm, harming folks who do not fit into the rigid mold the Church prescribes to people.

No Room for Dreaming (49:00): Stephen talks about how challenging it is to realize how controlling the Church makes life. ”It can seem so weird, like how could you live like this? Looking back on it and talking about it now, it made so much sense to me. It just seemed like this is the way It's supposed to be and this is what the Bible says, and this is what it means. Therefore, this is what we're supposed to pursue, and on so many levels, whether that's relationships or how we live in the world, how we spend our money, how we spend our free time. I was just thinking about how controlling it sounds and because it is, and, I'm really just starting to see that more clearly now. It's a big process for me to heal from.”

Nicki and Stephen will talk with us next week about how they rediscovered ways to build dreams individually and together. We can’t wait to share that episode with you.

Let’s heal together!